Podcast: The Shocking Energy of Lament (Mark Vroegop)


This text is a part of the The Crossway Podcast sequence.

Studying the Language of Lament

Mark Vroegop, creator of Darkish Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament shares his household’s story of loss and grief when confronted with the dying of his unborn daughter, recounting how God used that have to introduce him to the biblical idea of lament—an trustworthy but faith-filled method of regarding our ache illustrated all through Scripture.

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Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy

Mark Vroegop

This ebook seeks to revive the misplaced artwork of lament with a view to assist readers uncover the ability of trustworthy wrestling with the questions that include grief and struggling.

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Full Transcript

01:23 – Welcome

Matt Tully
Mark, thanks a lot for being with us on The Crossway Podcast in the present day.

Mark Vroegop
It’s nice to be with you in the present day.

01:28 – Painful Private Expertise

Matt Tully
So in 2004, you and your spouse skilled one thing extremely painful, most likely one of the painful experiences an individual can think about. Are you able to share slightly bit about what occurred?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah. My spouse woke me up early one morning—she was 9 months pregnant—and she or he mentioned, “Mark, I feel one thing’s mistaken with our being pregnant.” We had a number of youngsters—three that had been born previous to that point—and nothing had ever gone mistaken, so this was a shock. And to make a protracted story quick, after a go to with a health care provider decided that our nine-month-in-utero child had died, my spouse gave start to our stillborn daughter, Sylvia, on February 17, 2004. And that started a prolonged strategy of grieving. Years after that we had a number of miscarriages, one thing known as a blighted ovum, which is a false-positive being pregnant, and the Lord put us right into a season the place we realized the best way to belief him and in addition what it means to grieve deeply.

02:39 – Within the Wake of Sorrow

Matt Tully
And what was the primary thought that you just had if you heard the information about your daughter from the physician?

Mark Vroegop
what’s loopy about it’s there’s so many ideas that run by way of your coronary heart at the very same time. , just like the hymn author says, “Sorrows like sea billows roll.” So there have been ideas like, I simply I can’t consider this has occurred. I can’t consider my spouse has to provide start to a lifeless little one. Will she ever be blissful once more? Will God give us some other youngsters? How do I pastor a church? How do I preach on Sundays? It’s only a barrage. How am I going to clarify this to my little children {that a} child in mother’s tummy had handed away?

And the uncertainty of what our future regarded like was unbelievable. I had by no means skilled grief at that degree. It was horrifying due to the depth of it and the power of it. And so it was only a second that I’ll always remember of realizing every part about our life is simply radically modified. We knew God was good, and but we have been additionally actually, actually scared. And people two feelings simply coexisted in our coronary heart at the very same time.

04:00 – Coping with Tragedy as a Pastor

Matt Tully
In order a pastor I’m certain there have been many conditions the place you’ve walked alongside a household or a person coping with some type of tragedy or ache. Was there something shocking to you as you entered into your personal season of tragedy that possibly you weren’t anticipating?

Mark Vroegop
As a pastor you will have a well-developed theology of struggling, believing confidently in God’s sovereignty. I do know the texts, I’ve preached them. They usually have been true, and rang true, in our hearts throughout that day. And but being in the course of that crucible of struggling and hardship, it takes these issues that I consider and it provides emotional ache and trauma together with them such that I used to be preventing to consider what I knew I believed. Believing that God is sweet, figuring out that arduous isn’t unhealthy, and but the truth was laborious was actually, actually laborious. And I feel the long-term lesson that got here out of that for me was that these two issues are equally true—laborious isn’t unhealthy, however laborious is actually laborious. And going by way of that season of deep struggling helped me to know the way useful it’s to acknowledge that arduous is actually laborious, whereas on the identical time acknowledging that arduous isn’t unhealthy due to God’s goodness and his sovereign plan.

05:36 – Redemption in Exhausting Issues

Matt Tully
Unpack that slightly bit. Why is tough not at all times a nasty factor?

Mark Vroegop
Effectively, we all know that Scripture tells us that each one issues work collectively for our good. We all know that God has functions past what we are able to see. Job says, “I heard of you with the listening to of my ear, however now my eye sees you.” So struggling has a method of clarifying not solely what we consider but additionally serving to us to place our confidence—sensible confidence—in figuring out that someway God’s going to work all of this out.

, as I look again alone life I can see the way in which that the Lord used the dying of our daughter in 2004 for actually good functions. Now, I want she was alive. I want that wasn’t what God had chosen for us, however I can see how shaping it was. I can see among the fruit. And but, there are most likely 10,000 issues that God has finished by way of that have for our good and for the great of his title that I don’t even learn about. So believing that arduous isn’t unhealthy is a elementary, theological, Christian, gospel-centered dedication that God has plans for me and it doesn’t matter what takes place these plans at all times match together with his good grace towards me. And the cross being the best instance of that. Good Friday regarded like a catastrophe till resurrection Sunday occurred after which, Wow! Now we perceive what God was actually doing.

07:03 – The Language of Lament

Matt Tully
In your ebook you discuss concerning the journey that you just took in studying to worth lament, which is type of what we’re speaking about proper now. And also you truly write that the Bible gave voice to your ache. What do you imply by that?

Mark Vroegop
Effectively, what many individuals don’t know is {that a} third of the psalms are lament. So one in all each three psalms wrestles with actually laborious questions and laborious points. For instance Psalm 13—one in all my favourite Psalms—says, “How lengthy, O Lord, will you overlook me eternally? How lengthy will you disguise your face from me?” And the truth is that if an individual is a follower of Jesus they usually stroll by way of struggling, they marvel that query. When hardship comes there are days if you get up and you are feeling, God, have you ever forgotten me? Have you ever hidden your face from me?

Psalm 77 could be one other nice instance the place the Psalmist asks six rhetorical, very pointed questions, “Will the Lord spurn eternally? Has his steadfast love eternally ceased? Have his guarantees come to an finish forever?” So I simply discovered that the Bible gave me impressed phrases to really discuss to God concerning the struggles inside my very own soul whereas on the identical time believing that he was going to work this out for my good, but the problem of what I felt was actually, actually laborious. And so the Bible gave voice to the truth that there are two issues that occur in struggling. I consider that God is sweet, however that is actually laborious. And lament is the language of what you pray if you’re in ache that leads you to the purpose of belief.

08:50 – Reconciling Lament with Romans 8

Matt Tully
I think about that numerous Christians—and I’d take into account myself on this class—typically wrestle to know what it’s the psalms of lament are doing and relate them to different passages of Scripture, like Romans 8, for instance, the place Paul is expressing such confidence in God’s goodness in his plan, his sovereignty over all issues. How will we convey these two kinds of passages collectively in our personal considering?

Mark Vroegop
Effectively, what’s fascinating is that the Bible actually calls us to come back to the conclusion that God is sweet, that he’s reliable, and that every part goes to work out in accordance together with his plan.

On the identical time, the Bible additionally helps us to see that there’s a method by which we get there or a language that strikes us alongside between the pull of my life is actually laborious and I belief in God’s sovereignty. As an illustration, even in Romans Eight what many individuals don’t understand is that proper earlier than Paul says, “We’re greater than conquerors,” he quotes a lament Psalm. He says, “In your sake we’re being killed all of the day lengthy, we’re considered sheep to the slaughter.” Folks don’t understand that when Jesus held on the cross, when he cried out, “My God, my God, why have you ever forsaken me?” He quoted Psalm 22, a lament psalm.

Laments are the language that strikes us by way of our ache—laying out our complaints, asking God for assist—after which ending in belief. So there’s a typical sample: flip to God in prayer, lay out your complaints, ask him for assist, after which select to belief. Laments are the language that transfer us alongside the pathway of our grief. Nobody would argue that we have to rejoice at all times. Completely we have to rejoice. That’s not the query. The query is How will we get to the purpose that we are able to rejoice? And laments are the language of God’s people who transfer them to get to the purpose the place they’ll sing as a result of God has dealt bountifully with them. And that’s what Psalm 13 does. It begins with criticism, asks God for assist, after which concludes, “So I’ll sing.”

I discover that many Christians know they need to land in belief, they know they need to be grateful, they know they need to rejoice. However asking somebody who’s in ache or telling them, “You simply must rejoice,” with out giving them the language that strikes them there isn’t just unhelpful, it truly causes them to marvel if what they’re purported to consider on the finish is actually true as a result of they don’t know what to do with the feelings that they presently really feel.

11:32 – Why Lament Is Uncomfortable

Matt Tully
Why do you suppose it’s that so many Christians are unfamiliar and possibly even uncomfortable with the thought of lament?

Mark Vroegop
There are many causes, I’ll simply give a couple of. I feel that our understanding of struggling—for many of us in twenty-first-century American tradition—is conditioned by our expertise and our expectations of what life must be. So there’s at all times type of this concept of a brand new day dawning, a vibrant day forward, and optimism of that kind. Not many people know what it’s prefer to stay in an surroundings the place recession doesn’t go away, or poverty is gonna be part of your expertise for a protracted, very long time, or an ongoing sickness isn’t going to be healed any time quickly. So for essentially the most half, twenty-first-century American evangelicals—particularly inside white evangelicalism—know the best way to do triumph and triumphalism rather well, however we don’t know what it’s prefer to linger in long-term problem. And so in lots of respects each our sermons and our singing don’t replicate this specific language.

Now should you have a look at different components of the world, should you have been to speak with our African American brothers and sisters, they perceive lament as a class in a way more particular method than the remainder of us. The church in america has moved within the final couple hundred years, and lament is only a misplaced language that I feel must be recovered.

13:25 – Instructing Lament within the Church

Matt Tully
In your ebook you speak about how, as God was taking you on a journey to find the grace of lament, you began to show about it in your church. What occurred as you began to speak an increasing number of about what God was exhibiting you in his phrase?

Mark Vroegop
Folks got here out of the woodwork. Lastly! Any individual has recognized for me what’s been occurring in my soul. It gave them a way of hope that there was a language that spoke to their coronary heart language. It’s type of like if you hear a tune that simply resonates with you as a result of it speaks what you are feeling, however you didn’t have phrases otherwise you didn’t have melody for it, and it simply touches you so deeply.

That began to occur as individuals started to determine with this idea of lament being a prayer and ache that results in belief. It created some nice therapeutic alternatives for individuals who had long-term struggles with struggling or ache and invariably lament—as I taught on it—defined what they walked by way of. The humorous factor about lament is that only a few of us got down to examine it. We type of again into it. After which if you’re there you’re like, Oh! That is what’s been occurring in my life! T

Lament additionally helped us to tune our hearts extra successfully in the direction of the struggling round us. We spent a while within the ebook of Lamentations, the longest lament within the Bible, written over the destruction of Jerusalem. We lamented among the social and societal points that have been proper in our yard, whether or not an opioid disaster, or intercourse trafficking, or abortion, or a racial incident. And it provides us a language to assist interpret what’s occurring with the world. So in that respect it was extraordinarily useful in reminding our people who Christians know the arc of God’s redemption plan. We all know what’s mistaken with the world. So whether or not it’s private struggling or whether or not it’s societal struggling, we ought to have the ability to converse into it with a language that not solely has been given by God, however can also be capable of give us numerous grace.

15:41 – Sensible Recommendation for Pastors

Matt Tully
What sensible recommendation would you supply to the pastor who’s listening proper now who desires to assist his individuals to higher perceive and recognize the worth of lament?

Mark Vroegop
Check out the psalms of lament and preach on them, and start to let the textual content drive among the statements and the themes. Have the tone of the sermon match the tone of the textual content. That’s a technique.

One other method could be to wish extra usually pastoral prayers that characteristic lament or lament content material in it. To both lament over our sins in a time of confession or to lament over one thing that’s within the information over the past week.

Additionally, assist individuals know that there’s a class of language that helps us to handle ache. By simply figuring out that that’s there, you’ve taken a primary step in serving to individuals know what to do when the underside drops out. As a result of finally everybody’s going to face struggling sooner or later of their lifetime and lament shouldn’t be an unfamiliar language. Serving to individuals know that prematurely is actually useful.

After which lastly, it’s wonderful to me what number of funerals have little or no lament in them. Funerals are a terrific alternative to be trustworthy about how we really feel and but, for no matter purpose, we make them celebrations of life. Now I’m not in opposition to that idea or that time period, however funerals are supposed to be instructive they usually’re meant to assist us to take care of the ache that we’ve got and level us towards hope and reality. But I discover might pastors, for no matter purpose, are nervous about being too unhappy and consequently, you’re not appearing unhappy in any respect. And within the context of a funeral, that may be actually laborious should you’re there and also you are unhappy. You’re like, Man, am I not a follower of Jesus as a result of I’m combating this? So I feel there’s a holistic image and I feel our definition and our theology of struggling must not simply be theological, it additionally wants to know the theology of our feelings because it pertains to lament.

18:10 – Strain to Conceal Sorrow

Matt Tully
Do you suppose there’s an implicit strain within the church to cover our sorrow?

Mark Vroegop
That’s a terrific query and the reply is Sure. There are two ditches that I’ve discovered that individuals fall into—ditches that I used to be tempted to fall into.

One is despair. There’s no hope, and nothing is ever going to be good once more.

One other much more frequent one is denial. I’m fantastic. All the pieces is sweet. We go to church, you realize, and we’ve got these greetings we are saying to at least one one other, however we’re not truly being trustworthy about what’s actually occurring. If somebody in a greeting time have been to say, Hey man, how are you doing? Oh, not good man. I’m simply wrestling with numerous ache this week. Most individuals wouldn’t know what to do with that. And consequently, church generally is a very lonely place for many who are hurting. After which we miss a possibility to use the gospel in a sturdy option to people who find themselves strolling by way of the darkest of darkish moments.

19:18 – Useful and Hurtful Phrases

Matt Tully
As you suppose again by yourself interval of intense struggling and mourning, have been there issues that different Christians mentioned that you just discovered possibly not very useful, or in some instances even hurtful?

Mark Vroegop
Yeah, however I wish to watch out as a result of these people meant effectively. They did they usually have been attempting their greatest. Once more, it’s identical to if you’re attempting to talk a international language and also you’re not superb at it—no less than you’re attempting.

Some individuals tried to assign objective to our loss. We actually would hope that somebody would come to religion in Christ due to our loss, however if you’re grieving and any individual says, “, possibly extra individuals will come to Jesus due to this,” it’s true however it’s simply not useful in that second. Or, “Effectively, you’ve acquired three children, so I’m certain the Lord goes to provide you one other child.” Effectively yeah, we actually would hope that, however that’s such a deep concern to have any individual unintentionally type of trivialize that’s actually laborious.

We’re so tempted to attempt to consolation individuals by some type of affiliation with our personal struggling, and that’s one of the painful issues. We too intently hyperlink our personal expertise in order that we are able to inform them that we perceive as a result of for some purpose we’re afraid to say, “I’m sorry. And I don’t’ know what to say.” However that’s truly the correct factor to say. In truth, there was a good friend of ours who had misplaced a toddler—not a stillbirth, however older—and actually within the receiving line on the funeral house any individual advised them, “We’re actually sorry. We all know how you are feeling.” The grieving couple mentioned, “You do?” They usually mentioned, “Yeah, our canine died final week and we’re simply actually unhappy.” And it simply devastated the household. It makes you simply wish to say to individuals, “Shhhhhh. Simply say you’re sorry, and also you’re praying for them, and hug on them, and say much less.” Much less. Much less is extra.

21:33 – The Battle to Interact with the Hurting

Matt Tully
I’ve seen that in myself even, that typically there might be this pure impulse to attempt to join and categorical some type of empathy and understanding for somebody who’s within the midst of such ache and grief. Why is it that we are able to wrestle to know the best way to interact with individuals?

Mark Vroegop
Two causes. One, I feel there’s a real need to wish to assist. And I feel that’s commendable. I imply, individuals wish to assist different individuals of their grieving they usually simply don’t know what to say.

Two, grief in any individual else’s life is horrifying. I had a good friend lately that was deeply, deeply grieving within the midst of a prayer time and simply wailing earlier than the Lord with monumental quantities of sorrow and his grief created concern inside my coronary heart. It was a loopy factor. I knew what was occurring, I had classes for it, I knew the best way to even assist him intellectually, however emotionally, I simply wished him to cease. I wished him to cease being so unhappy. That degree of sorrow shakes us as human beings at our core as a result of it simply screams, One thing is mistaken with the world! and in the identical method {that a} funeral is a reminder of the penalty of sin, so too sorrow is a reminder that life is actually damaged. In fact we all know the reply and the hope that we’ve got in Christ, however these moments shake us. They usually’re designed to. So I feel individuals are scared, they don’t know what to say and consequently they simply don’t have a language that may assist individuals once they’re strolling by way of deep seasons of lament.

23:31 – Sensible Recommendation for Supporting in Struggling

Matt Tully
What sensible recommendation would you supply to the person, or possibly a small group, as they search to convey a few of these ideas—and even among the language you’re explaining right here associated to lament—to bear on their very own experiences of ache and sorrow and struggling as they search to assist people who find themselves within the midst of actually grieving for one thing?

Mark Vroegop
When any individual is actually struggling deeply, simply merely sit with them of their ache and love on them and pray with them and be part of them of their sorrow, and don’t attempt to repair it or give recommendation. You can pray the guarantees of God over them, however it’s laborious to be grieving and individuals are out of the blue transferring into resolution mode.

The opposite factor I feel you are able to do, and I’ve finished this personally with people who’re grieving, is to take a lament psalm and simply decide it aside utilizing that four-fold construction that I discussed earlier than: flip, complain, ask, belief. Right here the psalmist is praying to God, so as an alternative of being silent he’s speaking to God. The place are the complaints on this textual content? What are we to ask God for? The place will we see a turning to belief? I’ve seen nice assist when individuals examine a psalm by way of that lense after which write their very own. What would my psalm of lament appear like? What would it not appear like for me to show to God? What would I say to him within the midst of my ache? What criticism would I supply to God? What do I wish to ask him to do in gentle of his guarantees? After which what recommitment of belief may I make?

When individuals see issues by way of the psalms after which pray it, it’s actually useful. It provides tracks they’ll transfer their ache alongside but additionally creates some nice moments of individuals having the ability to be trustworthy and to look after each other in a method that ends in decision towards belief, but additionally actually cares for each other in a extremely deep method.

25:44 – Unearthing Idols

Matt Tully
You write in your ebook that “Lament helps us to unearth our idols.” What do you imply by that?

Mark Vroegop
Struggling of any form reveals you who you might be. John Piper talks about struggling as a second when your beaker is bumped. So think about our lives like a beaker with a transparent resolution with sediment down on the backside. Over time the sediment stays hidden. However if you’re bumped with struggling, what was there—your self-sufficiency, the idols that you’ve got—can floor.

However right here’s the issue: it’s fairly laborious to confront a struggling individual as a result of they type of have the final word cross, you realize? A get out of jail free card, so to talk. So it’s necessary for struggling individuals to comprehend that hardship can floor what we belief in. So on the sensible degree, when my spouse was strolling by way of the grief of the lack of our daughter, there was part of her coronary heart that I couldn’t repair. It doesn’t matter what I did, I couldn’t finish her sorrow and one of many issues the Lord confirmed me by way of that’s that boy, my idol of having the ability to make things better actually surfaced once I confronted a grief in her soul that I couldn’t repair.

In order that’s only one instance of many sorts of idols that may floor. Whether or not our idol is cash and a job loss or an unsure economic system out of the blue surfaces that. Or our goals of what our life could be like. we needed to wrestle with What if we are able to’t get pregnant once more? And with a number of miscarriages and a false constructive being pregnant, we needed to type of launch that need to the Lord and realizing that that was a reasonably necessary need on our half, and never a nasty need, but when that turns into final, then it’s an idol. And so we needed to launch that to the Lord. So struggling of any form has a possibility, if we’ll enable it to, to determine the issues that we are able to place an excessive amount of belief in.

28:01 – Potential Risks in Struggling

Matt Tully
What would you say are among the risks that we are able to usually face within the midst of deep struggling?

Mark Vroegop
Oh man, there are such a lot of potential risks and pitfalls. I discussed earlier the despair and denial. Sorrow may make you actually self-centered. It may well create a state of affairs the place due to your ache you might justify solely worrying about your self. You’re in survival mode and so that you might be insensitive to different individuals, unkind. Sorrow has the potential of exhibiting you who you might be, and that may very well be a tough and difficult fixture for certain. Struggling may make you conceited since you suppose that no person else understands, otherwise you even start projecting your expertise on all people else. It may additionally trigger you to start to query issues that you just used to consider in. Is God actually good? Is the Bible actually the phrase of God? When your expectations in life collide with what has occurred to you. So there’s numerous ditches and numerous land mines which might be there and but the hope is that God may also help navigate us by way of them and the language of lament is likely one of the presents that he provides us for making our method by way of that messy terrain.

29:41 – Hope for the Struggling

Matt Tully
There could also be any individual listening to us proper now who for numerous causes is within the midst of a season of deep sorrow. Perhaps they’ve lately misplaced any individual pricey to them, possibly another person that they love or possibly they themselves are struggling with some type of sickness or illness. Perhaps there’s a strained or damaged relationship that there simply doesn’t appear to be a lot hope for. What would you say to that individual? What encouragement would you supply that individual with regards to discovering the grace of lament for themselves?

Mark Vroegop
My encouragement could be that Jesus is the person of sorrows. He was acquainted with grief. He lived amongst us in order that we might know that after we come to him with our ache that we’ve got a Savior who understands.

And Jesus lamented. He poured out his grief within the backyard of Gethsemane. He talked to God about his ache whereas he was even on the cross. There’s a possibility for us to come back to the person of sorrows and the Bible provides us a language that may assist us to get there. We will discuss to God as an alternative of giving him the silent therapy. We will lay out what our sturdy feelings are and God is aware of that they’re there. We will complain to him. We will ask him to assist us primarily based upon his guarantees. We will then land in belief realizing that that isn’t simply one thing you do as soon as, it’s one thing that you just do in all completely different seasons of life and throughout the numerous seasons of struggling.

So my encouragement could be this, that hope for the follower of Jesus springs forth as reality is rehearsed. And as you rehearse the reality of the phrase, utilizing lament to do it, that’s the way you make it sooner or later at a time figuring out that God goes to provide you grace for every part that you just face on a regular basis, and lament simply occurs to be a conduit whereby God provides that grace. Lament helps us to not surrender. It’s the language that we use after we stay within the land between that is actually laborious, and God is sweet. These two issues exist and lament is how we make it by way of the difficulties that God has allowed us to expertise.

31:53 – Closing

Matt Tully
Mark, thanks for taking a while to speak with us in the present day. Thanks for sharing slightly little bit of your personal story, your personal journey to find the grace of lament. We recognize it.

Mark Vroegop
It’s a pleasure to be with you. Thanks a lot for the chance.

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